The Path of Glory

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Disillusioned with their missions in war, felt betrayed by the US government, and facing a dark future! These are what war resisters go through in their years of military experience and afterwards. Using exclusive interviews, this documentary pivots on three central characters who live in Ontario, Canada. Kimberly Rivera, now the mother of five kids, joined the US army in 2005 for financial reasons. While the US government had promised her that she would serve her duty in the US, they sent her to Iraq. Having her heart and soul hurt by the war scenes, she flees to Canada as the first female US military deserter. Jeremy Brockway flees with his wife, Ashley, and their two sons to Port Colborne, Ontario. Due to the adverse conditions of the war in Iraq, he now suffers from severe PTSD and has committed suicide so many times. Lee Zaslovsky, conscripted to the US army to fight in Vietnam, is the third individual who fled to Canada in 1969 as a sign of resistance to the war in Vietnam. In the end, we come to know about these characters’ conditions in July 2014, after four years since the time of shooting the documentary.

TIME CODE: 00:00_05:00

SOUNDBITE [English], James Gilligan, War Veteran: “They fired again and again, and on the forth barrage, I was ready to turn in the road and we were pulling away to go for more secure position. I had reported back that they were, this target was out of range and I was unable to spot around anymore and I did not see any smoke or any more as impact. They continued to fire a fifth and sixth barrage into an Afghani village. Members of the scout sniper team were in a height up in the mountain and had been called down into the village to perform an emergency triage on numerous casualties. Later that night, they called me over to their tent and they asked me if I was qualified to call for a fire. I told them that I was not qualified. However I was asked and I gave the responses needed to quickly asses the danger and proceed forward with the mission.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “I don’t have to go tomorrow!”

SOUNDBITE [English], Andrea Piunno, City News: “Dozens of supporters proudly welcomed war resisters with open arms. 26-year-old Kimberly Rivera is one of them. It’s been an uphill battle for the former US soldier who faces deportation, tonight, she on the reprieve.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “This is a slight victory because I don’t have to go home tomorrow. So I’m very very excited. You know I don’t have to be handed over to the authorities so it gives me another day to fight.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Andrea Piunno, City News:It was an eleventh hour ruling by the federal court. Rivera was granted an emergency stay.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Alyssa Manning, Lawyer: “And it is only a temporary stay so it is only potentially for a couple of weeks at the most maybe months.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Andrea Piunno, City News: “People here tonight are signing this petition asking the government to stop the deportation of US was resisters like Kimberly. If she is ordered back to the states, she could likely face a jail time and be separated from her family including her 4-month-old daughter. After refusing to serve a second tour in Iraq, Rivera fled to Canada with her family in 2007. If she is ordered back to the US, she would face more than a year behind bars.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “I was fighting for your liberty. I was fighting for peace. I was fighting to keep my family safe, and you and your family. But in reality, I was fighting to destroy everything you know and love, and destroy the land to live on. The question stays and fighting will keep your silence. In my hiding, I can’t be out of sight and out of the way so everything would go by and you could be taken. And the last part of reality I found I was becoming something that was not me. In my heart, everything I was fighting for wasn’t great enough to give up any life. All of my battles are very true to me. I know from my heart and my change that I cannot fight what violence means for peace. My fight for peace is with my pen to say my thoughts without fear of being locked up in a dark place where no one can hear. Can the time hear? Can you take the time and a heart to understand what I’m now fighting for? With words not a gun. And I signed my name. And I wrote it July 11, 2008.”

TIME CODE: 05:00_10:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “My family was getting broken. So in order for me to keep it strong, I had to put aside a career, because at the time I had to do something more important. Is it the money? Is it the job? Is it the benefits? Why I’m keeping this or I can destroy my family. Or do I want to be humble and live a little lower in level to have my family? Which one is more important to me? So I chose of course my family. My loyalty is very strong. My will does not break very easy but you can only be loyal to one. You know? You see there? Strangers don’t believe. “Give a damn about your family, or your mind or your feelings.” They just say lock them up because it doesn’t matter. To me, it matters.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Mario Rivera, Kimberly's Husband: “The way that we decided to leave the US wasn’t the decision that we made at first. Kimberly and I had sat down and talked. Talked about how she felt and how she wasn’t okay with what was going on over there. Because the whole time she was over there she wasn’t doing what she was told she was going to be doing. She was basically just in charge of padding people down and treating them like criminals. You know, padding women down and just, you know...”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “A lot of soldiers gave up a lot of their lives and to be a soldier. They gave up their families, their wives, their children. And I couldn’t make that same sacrifice. So maybe it makes me smaller, maybe it makes me stronger, I don’t know. All I know is for me it’s not right and was not right.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Mario Rivera, Kimberly's Husband: “She couldn’t do it. In a situation where she would have to kill someone, she wouldn’t be able to do it. It’s not within our morals for that to happen and she wouldn’t be able to do it so we talked and we were going to go back to the base at Fort Carson and tell them. That’s what she had decided and worked it out with them.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “I was there for 3 months and I didn’t go back after my 3 months. We’d already lost quite a few men in our infantry units and my unit, the only reason I know that they were going out and they support soldiers. They are not the infantry soldiers. They are just mechanics and cooks who they put on security positions because they don’t have enough infantry men to go out and do the infantry jobs. That’s how I know because the younger soldiers and our support company were killed in a road side bomb. And the road is now in an abyss. So I know that my company was in there doing the raids and the curfews and the patrols.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Mario Rivera, Kimberly's Husband: “I had talked to their recruiter plenty of times about her being a mom and going to war and he assured me that her being a woman that she would never be sent to a combat zone. Basically, feeding me lies from the very beginning because as soon as she was sent to her base, we found out that right away basically - not even from her chain of command but we found out through TV - that she was going to Iraq.”

TIME CODE: 09:46 _ 15:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Bryan Casler, War Veteran: “In 2006, we were stationed in downtown Fallujah at the mayor’s compound. We had a couple of marines that were being punished and one of their punishments was to remove all this paperwork from the top floor of the mayor's compound to bring it down into our dumpsters, while in full gear. This took hours for them to do and I think it might have extended across days actually. After all the paperwork was gone, I finally had a chance to sit down with my interpreter and just asked what all that paperwork was? Well, I came to find out we’d destroyed all the birth certificates of the city of Fallujah.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “Yes, this is my fatigue jacket from when I was in the army. This is my dog tag here which identifies me and it states my date of birth and social security number and it also states religion, none, no preference. And they give you 2 on a chain and they are used when you die, if you die in war. One of them goes in your mouth and one goes between your toes. So when they put you in the bag and they take you out of the bag again, they’d know who you are.I should wash the dishes. Oh, God! So when I was drafted, many of the people who were drafted were middle class guys who had been to university and so forth. In those days, the reason you went to university for many people was to stay out of the military, because you’d get deferment for as long as you stayed in university.Eventually, by December, I received orders to, you know, I’d completed my training and I received orders to go to Vietnam and I had a decision to make as to whether I would comply with that order. I was also given a few weeks to go home before they leave for overseas duty and I went home and I consulted with various people, lawyers and so forth whether there was any way that I could go to this base that I was assigned to, in state of Washington and refuse to go. I said okay, I’ll refuse this order, punish me, and I’ll be court marshaled. And they said we can’t come to that. They can just as well put you in handcuffs and put you on a plane and send you to Vietnam anyway. So I decided that it wasn’t worth taking that risk and so I decided to go to Canada. This is my undesirable discharges undesirable. So this allowed me to visit the United States. By getting this I could visit the United States or return there to live if I wanted, but I decided I didn’t want to return to live there but I did want to be able to visit my family and so on. And the date is 21st of March 1975. This is another guy, Alonzo. He went back to the states and then he decided he wanted to come to Canada so I went down to the military base Fort Lewis and picked him up and bring him to Canada. I think the basic reason is that Canada decided rightly to stay apart from the Iraq war. This is follow-through on that decision. But what about people who agree with Canada on that and say will Canada reach out and offer me a chance, a life of peace and making a peaceful contribution? Of course Canada has a tradition of that. I’m a Vietnam War deserter who came up in 1970 and it was quite easy for me.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Brockway's Familly: “Hello, my name is Ashley and this is Wesley, this is William and my husband Jeremy and we are the Brockways.”

TIME CODE: 15:00_20:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “He was sent to Iraq, where he became very distressed. When he came back from Iraq, he tried to get medical help for his mental condition which was he had been thinking of suicide and found it very difficult to relate to people and found that it was impossible for him to get that because they wouldn’t believe that he was suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome or anything else like that. He has made a refugee claim along with his wife and now with 2 children who have been born in Canada and his wife has a really tough job supporting him and also raising 2 small boys. He tried very hard to get access to veteran services for his condition but as I say, they tend to sort of blame a soldier.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Jeremy Brockway, War Resister: “Because you had those symptoms and they didn’t discharge you. So what happened between then and when you came back to the States?I started to go through the process of filing for medical board when I ended up being denied because my commanding officer wrote a non-medical assessment and said that my problems weren’t affecting my job performance. Like I was basically the same still and I was still able to perform all my duties and so my medical board was rejected.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Ashlay Brockway, Jeremy's Wife: “This is the combat training at the Marine Corps for the school of infantry. This recognizes that Jeremy making sacrifices. It’s just certificate of appreciation. This is a scrap book that Jeremy’s mom started for him. It starts off when he first told them that he’d joined the marines. They had gone out to dinner. It says it was June of 2005. And this is I believe as he was graduating. His parents were able to come and watch them and do some different things for the graduation.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Jeremy Brockway, War Resister: “For me, the military seemed a pretty good option. I didn’t have any money for school and the recruiter said that with the military experience that would actually count towards college credits and I would have money to go to college afterwards. Then that kind of seemed like a good thing to do for the experience and for patriotic duty. So patriotic duty, what was it that you wanted to do? Like defending our freedom. This is what I was thinking. Like making a difference.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “I understand that out of the 535 members of the US Congress, a grand total of one member has a child in the military! This is a very good indication that if you’re doing well in American society or you’re part of the elite, you don’t send your kids to defend that society. The people who go to defend it are those who are not doing well and are not benefiting as much by that society, and I think that’s grossly unfair. But I think for many poor kids, the idea is, “Look! This is the only way out” and for me to just sort of stay out of the military and work in Walmart and so on, this is what Kim ran into. She was working at Walmart and found that there was just no chance for her to get much above the minimum wage for a long, long time, if ever. And she figured, I’ve got to go back to the army. So she went back to the army.”

TIME CODE: 20:10_ 25:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “You do what you have to do mostly because the economy is not going good. There’s no work. The only work is in the military or in Walmart maybe. Maybe if you are lucky and other places like that. And beneficially for a career if you need medical, dental, life insurance, if you need any of those things, they have it. So it is very easy for somebody to do that. To think that they are going to get a better life with the most soldiers don’t live past 4 years. So if you ever think about it, those few years that you have some benefits are not even worth that.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Jason Hurd, War Veteran: “I took my hands off of my weapon altogether and began jumping up and down, waving my hands back and forth, trying to get this car to stop and see me. The car kept coming and so I raised my weapon and the car kept coming. I pulled my selector switch off of Safe and the car kept coming. I was applying pressure to my trigger, getting ready to fire on the vehicle, and out of nowhere, a man came out of the side of the road, flagged the car down and got it to pull over. He walked around to the driver side door, opened it up, and out popped an eighty-year old woman. I came to find out this woman was a highly respected figure in the community and I don’t have a clue what would have happened had I opened fire on this woman. I would imagine a riot. If a foreign occupying force came here to the United States and regardless of what they told us, whether they told us they were here to free us, to liberate us, and to give us democracy, do you not think that every person that owns a shotgun would not come out of their hills and fight for their right to self determinate them?”

SOUNDBITE [English], Jeremy Brockway, War Resister: “By the time that my unit was deployed to Iraq, the government shifted their focus. They couldn’t find any weapons of mass destruction, so they’d shifted our mission to gaining freedom for the Iraqis. And that was a little disillusioning for me because I thought that we were there to protect ourselves. And then they just shifted it to something else, because they were wrong.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Ashlay Brockway, Jeremy's Wife: “The war affected me personally by taking away, I guess, what I thought our married life would be like and the way that our family would be and the things that we would enjoy and the opportunities we would have. We probably spent maybe a week together after we were married before he had to go back to the camp legion where he was stationed. Then I saw him 5 more days before he deployed and that was it. I’d become even more depressed because he was going like the man that I love left and we were only together such a short time after we were married and we didn’t have that time to bond. I wasn’t sure when I would talk to him again. I kind of expected that I wouldn’t be able to talk to him at all. Well, he was there and so I thought I would try and just busy myself with everything and so I decided to take a college course. Then I got 2 jobs. I tried to spend a lot of time with his family because then, it would make me feel closer to him by being able to spend time with them. And then it ended up that the job that he had in the military, he could talk on the internet and email back and forth. So I would tell him my problems, but he would never talk about anything and he was going through a lot that he never told me.”

TIME CODE: 25:16_30:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Jeremy Brockway, War Resister: “While we were there that to be kind of friends. One of them was an Iraqi policeman. He was in his police truck. Then one of the marines that were assigned to the guard duty shot up his police truck with him still inside. The marine had just lost it and he ended up being shot in the chest, the policeman. But we couldn’t get the medical chopper to come in and pick him up because he was considered low priority, because he was Iraqi.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Ashlay Brockway, Jeremy's Wife: “Jeremy had a post traumatic stress and anxiety and everything and it affects me and the children a lot because it isn’t like a normal family situation. Often times it’s more like I’m a single parent, because he doesn’t hop a whole lot with the kids or hop around the house. He usually doesn’t go out so he won’t do like shopping or anything like that. Before, I used to provoke him, because before I understood that he had post traumatic stress and what that meant, I was also suffering from depression and I used to provoke him because I wanted him to help me in something and he never did. It seems like the only times that things happen is when he is alone and is night. He starts thinking about all of the things that he’s experienced and had to be a part of and done himself. So he’s never inflicted any harm on me or kids or anything like that.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Jeremy Brockway, War Resister: “Being in a crowded area was a dangerous place to be. And there’s a lot of trauma that I still have a hard time letting go of like with being in a crowded place like at the shopping mall. My mind doesn’t really understand that it’s not dangerous there. It’s still kind of functioning like it was in Iraq. Like I start to do things that I would do in that situation. Like I’ll take cover and try to find my gun. It is like that my mind is telling me that I need my gun but I don’t have it, so I start to get a little panic that I’m under attack and I don’t have my gun. My mind hasn’t really realized that I’m not there anymore and it’s not dangerous to do those things.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Ashlay Brockway, Jeremy's Wife: “It was only for emergencies like if he took off, if he had a panic attack. That’s all that it was for so, because it was only for emergencies. When Jeremy first came back from Iraq and was diagnosed with the post traumatic stress, they prescribed him drugs that were very harsh and he kind of lived in a dream state for a while. He was very angry and irritable. Sometimes he would do things with no recollection of doing them. He was falling down the stairs while on these drugs and he didn’t know that, that had happened. And after a flashback, a dirty one, whether he was thinking that he was protecting himself I’m not sure exactly what happened. He also has tried to commit suicide and he’s also cut his arms to harm himself.”

TIME CODE: 30:00_35:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Jeremy Brockway, War Resister: “Before I started getting treatment, I couldn’t deal with these problems on an emotional level, so I ended up cutting myself a lot to physicalize the pain, to make it something that I could deal with. But that didn’t really help me really deal with the problems. It sort of just lightened the stress for a little while.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “Would you like to explain how you feel about riding the street car? For me I don’t like to ride the public transport because a lot of times, that’s very crowded and the more crowded it is, the more anxiety I start to feel, like I would start to have hyperventilation. Once I go pass hyperventilation, then sometimes I just pass out or I start freaking out and it’s not pretty. Not at all! If I have to take the street car, I would just wait for however long it takes for it to not be busy. Then I’d get on like the least crowded bus or street car or subway, and I’ll wait however long I need to. It’s just how I can deal with it. The subway was so bad for me. I had to travel to work. I worked in a further place 3 years ago. I had to travel the subway to get there. For me, I had to take the very last train. Every time, the very last one I had to stand my back against the wall so I can see everything all the way to the end of the subway car, because one time I had a bad dream that one man just came through the doors that connect the trains together. He came through that door that you’re not supposed to come through and he just shoots everybody. And for me it was a daymare meaning I saw this when I was awake not when I was asleep. It was a lot worse a couple of years ago. I couldn’t even walk the street without thinking like there’s somebody up at some window that was open, if the window was open, and begin walking next to the buildings in shade. I hate that. I still have to let people pass me by when you’re walking on the sidewalk. I hate people walking on my heels. I look behind me. Just like, if you’re going to take me, just do it! Don’t like keep walking behind me. Freaking! Crap! That’s the feeling, right?”

SOUNDBITE [English], Mario Rivera, Kimberly 'S Husband: “The thing that really broke her was 2 things. Like I said, she had a friend, couple of friends. They were Iraqi women that would go to the base once in a while because they worked there. One of them, her sister was hurt by the mortar attacks that they kept on attacking. So, seeing that happened, you know, innocent people was something that was affecting her as well as seeing the kids that would come in there crying all the time afraid of them, afraid of the soldiers and afraid of the whole situation. They’re just crying and her wanting to hold them but not being able to because she is a soldier.”

TIME CODE: 35:00_40:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Matthew Chailders, War Veteran: “The detainees wore flexicuffs by their wrists behind their back and they’re vile for it. Marines were screaming at them to get up and then they tripped them down on their face. They couldn’t break their fall because they’re tied up and the marines were showing the Iraqis pornography which was strictly taboo in their religion and they made this very obvious to us. I saw a marine take the hat of an Iraqi. He shoved it down the back of his pants and wiped himself with it and then tried to feed it to the Iraqi who was vile for it and because they were, he was desperate for food, he actually tried to eat it.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “This is my friend Harry May and he is-- When did you buy this restaurant?”

SOUNDBITE [English], Harry May, Lee's friend: One and half years ago.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “And before that, he worked in the center of the restaurant there. And that’s where I made friends with him. And then you got married.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Harry May, Lee's friend: “Yes.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “Then you decided to go with your wife to visit your parents in Vietnam. And you said you wanted me to go so you went there first and then I came and met you. I had a very nice time. Very nice! I only got sick once. The Sake!”

SOUNDBITE [English], Harry May, Lee's friend: “And last year you came back again.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “Yes. 2 more times.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Harry May, Lee's friend: “Yes. So how do you feel about it? I mean if you had to go to war and you would be the one who”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “That’s why I didn’t want to go. I didn’t want to kill Vietnamese people. They never did me any harm.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Harry May, Lee's friend: “But I don’t like to go in the war when I was in the high school. When you finish high school, you have to go to the war. But I said no.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “Go to the army.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Harry May, Lee's friend: “Yes army, but I said I don’t want it. I want to come to Canada and study and work here. And that’s where I became Cho.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Lee Zaslovsky, Vietnam War Resister: “No doubt there are some people who fit well into the war environment and you know, psychologically strengthened by it. I would say that those people are very few in far between, although they talk a lot but the ones that are damaged by it tend to be quiet about it because they don’t want to admit that they are weak, they don’t want to compromise their self-image as competent, and of course there is always the problem that they have expressing it.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “I always kind of had in my mind I was kind of a little depressed. And I still needed to remind myself that God’s with me. No matter how much darkness I feel, I come in and I can get out. The blue says how much I have been damaged and how my heart was torn up. Like it describes here, and the sun here represents how it binds everything together because it gives us life and energy to live. This one has too has a name. It has Iraqi sun. This one shows like it was during the winter so I made like snowmen, all of us are snowmen, my husband and me and the babies. That’s how it supposed to be like our family supposed to be tight. I was trying to find a woman that I spoke with, to a group of women for Voice of Women in Canada. There’s no way she doesn’t know me because I know that she was in Iraq at the same time I was, so our stories tell both sides, the soldier and the citizen. And I just don’t know how it comes to the next. When I first heard her talk, it made me cry always and still everytime I always cry. And I always tell her I’m so sorry because you know? I don’t know how life is like for them. I know how it felt when I was seeing it and it hurt the same but that experience is different.”

TIME CODE: 40:00_45:00

SOUNDBITE [English], Olivia Chow, FMR.CNP MP: “George W. Bush and Steven Harper sent soldiers to fight for democracy. Democracy means obeying the will of parliament here in Canada. Parliament has said, as the House of Commons have said very clearly, that war resisters should be allowed to stay in Canada. We are proud of them. We want them to be Canadian citizens. Therefore, there should be no deportations of Iraq war resisters if there is democracy in Canada”.

SOUNDBITE [English], Ashlay Brockway, Jeremy's Wife: “I can’t go back and see my dad. My kids have never seen my parents. My parents have never seen their grandchildren and as long as we are looking for refugee status, if I leave Canada for any reason, the case is automatically dismissed. So I’m not sure how long it’ll take before there is a decision in that, but hopefully it won’t be too much longer. I think that my children can go to the States. Then I think that I could go to the States, but I’m not certain about that, because I know that Jeremy would be arrested but I don’t know if they would arrest me for being with him since he’s considered a criminal.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Mario Rivera, Kimberly 'S Husband: “Living like this is pretty hard. It’s very depressing. I mean I’ve got a lot of health problems that I’m working on them and you see many doctors for. We don’t get to see our families because they’re in the United States and I was brought up as being very close to my family. The longest I was ever away from my family was maybe a week. I’m very close to my mother and my father and my brothers and my sister. So being away from them for so long and not being able to see them, they not being able to see their grandchildren, it’s extremely hard. It’s depressing. It’s something we shouldn’t have to go through just because we don’t have the right to stand up for our beliefs.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Kimberly Rivera, War Resister: “The lawyer can’t help me because if I go back, there’s going to be military versus me. My defence, he can only - in the guidelines of the military term - cannot defend for me even I have to basically guilt myself to them, like I’ll probably have to do a plea bargain of some kind. When he tells me that in 95% of all the cases, the soldiers take a plea which would mean that the military prosecutor would say, “We’ll reduce your amount of time and this and that, if you decide not to go public or if you decide to do this or this, we’ll give you a less time.” And it depends on that plea I guess what I would do.”

TIME CODE: 45:00_50:32

SOUNDBITE [English], Ashlay Brockway, Jeremy's Wife: “If we end up having to go back to the States, I’m very concerned because we don’t have any money of our own right now. I don’t have a job. I have 2 kids. Jeremy would be in jail. So I don’t know where we would live. We wouldn’t have any health care and I would have to find, like the kids wouldn’t have their dad anymore and they would have to go to day care so I could work. So they would hardly have me anymore and I don’t know what that would be like for our whole family. I think that it would really stress Jeremy out, and just completely destroy him.”

SOUNDBITE [English], Jeremy Brockway, War Resister: “My goal is to just be a normal person again, to do the things normal people do, go to the movies on Friday, have a regular job, take a vacation by the lake, just stuff like that.”


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